Live vote: Guns on college campuses

Well with that many emotions involved if you can't handle a ccw then you should not be allowed to drive either

Not everyone in college is a hormone-crazed 19 year old.  I would hate to leave my wife a widow just because of someone's stereotypes of what being in college means....as a side note anyone that this would effect is already carrying safely and responsibly EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THEIR STATE... not really sure why the geographic boundaries of campus set off everyone's "crazy switch".

PJ, are you not aware that college students everywhere are aloud to own guns. I'm 21, in college, own a gun and have a concealed license. I have emotions, relationship problems and irritating professors. Have I ever thought about shooting someone because of it? No, because I am not a murder. Just because college students can't carry on campus, doesn't mean that we don't carry everywhere else.

Cynthia, Cho obtained his guns legally. Was it wrong that he got them, well I think you could successfully argue that. However, the underlying point here, is that he got them legally and since what he did, they stopped people like him from obtaining guns, yes a better gun law that I agree with. Also, please stop saying that guns are only good for killing people. They are good for hunting and sport in general. In the past ten years, the top rising sport among kids was skateboarding, the second one? Trap/target shooting (according to ESPN the mag).

I am not sure what 'guy in Texas' you are reffering to. The sniper at UT (I believe it was UT)? He was stopped with the assitance of students who got guns from their cars. If it is someone else, let me know, I'll roll with that one too.

Remember too, that the majority of crimes being commited with guns are being commited with guns that are obtained illegally.

I don't know what guy in Texas you are reffering to. Was it the guy at

James-731295 

Not meant to insult or throw everyone into the same bucket - just reality.  As in all walks of life - you have those who watch Jerry Springer and you have those who tune into the Lehrer Hour.  No harm - no foul - I just don't happen to agree with guns on a campus.  There is just too much room for error - on EVERYONE's part i.e. from 'the laughable 'security' who are hired to handle folks who had too much to drink' to the spurned nut on the Virginia Tech campus.  Surely you can see the implications involved in the very first incident - and make no mistake - there would be a incident much sooner than later.

You could argue that no campus is the same.  I'd agree - but there are wack jobs on each and every single campus out there.

I'd like to suggest that I have an answer - I don't.  I just know that this is not it.

PJ, while I certainly respect your arguement and believe that you are entitled to that opinion, I will have to disagree with you; and I'll give you a couple examples that might help to quell your fears about allowing guns on campus.

First of all (and most importantly, IMO) I want to point you to the eleven campuses in these States that allow ccw. In their combined about 40 semesters (or so, my last check was 28, it being November I think I can throw in this semester, but if you want I can get the number up in a heart beat) they have had ZERO incidents involving guns on campus, no murders, no confusion with the LEO's on campus, no stolen guns, nothing.

Second, the ccw permit holders as a demographic are among the least likely to commit crimes, that includes carrying while drinking. As a note, that also includes all of the 21-23 year old 'normal aged' college students.

Next, even though I live in Wisconsin I bet I can walk onto campus (of 11,000 or so) and within 20 minutes find 100 people that don't binge drink at all.

Now, I'd like to go through a couple other solutions that people have brought up.

-Beefing up security, putting up metal detectors, etc.... This just isn't cost effective, even if you stop at beefing up security, there just aren't enough officers to cover all the areas to get to an active shooter situation on time.

-Better mental eval's... No matter what you do people are going to slip through the cracks.

Finally, I just want to say that if someone can come up with a fesible alternative that is also cost effective I am all for it and will gladly tuck away my gun. However, until that happens I am going to fight for my right to protect myself in the most effecient way possible.

I would also like to point out that I do not encourage people to illegaly carry on campus.

Whoah!  Cynthia, that is totally unfair.  We as Americans need to defend life and liberty at home FIRST.  Just because he is well trained does not mean he belongs in the service of the military.

Please don't let fear and emotion drive your opinions here, there are cold, hard facts, and the fact remains:

-lunatics will carry weopons whether or not you tell them they can't.

-It is MY RIGHT as an American citizen, and even as a creature on the planet, to defend myself from emminent danger.

This is a totally black and white argument.  People around you every day are carrying concealed, and legally.  Statistics and studies are PROVING you are safer when these laws allow for law abiding citizens to defend themselves.

Maybe you could elaborate on that more instead of trying to force people to read between the lines that aren't in that post. Do you have a problem with the way he stated it? If so that's pretty petty on your part not to see the overall truth of the post.

I still see no use in having students carry a weapon while going to school. And yes, I do have a problem with the way he stated it that he should be allowed to carry a weapon. Then again, I cannot take someone seriously when they say they are going to 'pack heat'. I have already completed two tours in Iraq, I know what it's like to be shot at and shoot back. It's a joke to get your CC, that's why I am against it.

Do you think that you can process everything that is happening in a fire fight and make the correct choice after only two days of 'training' ?

Carrying concealed on a daily basis is not the same as the guy who never shoots his gun in his sock drawer or left in his safe at home.  Its a serious responsibility and we take it as such. You don't hear about us because we quietly go about our lives 'packing heat', not running around like cowboys. What you are proposing is waiting for the authorities to show up, count bodies and conduct an investigation rather than allowing people to save themselves.  The comparison to Kent State is apples and oranges, not remotely the same and if you can't see that you should refrain from making any judgements on the topic.  Many campuses are in marginal areas ridden with crime.  Guaranteeing the criminals have unarmed victims is welcome news. I worry every time my girlfriend has to walk out to the commuter lot after her night class.  This is not just about mass murders, crimes like assaults, rapes and murders of individuals happen every day. Campus police are at best, a reactive force.  Its obvious some out there just prefer victims in the false hopes of public safety.

I trust the students and faculty to make the right decision when that moment happens.

You idiot! Just because there are millions of students on thousands of campuses does not mean that the kids are expendable! Every life is precious to the parents, siblings, relatives and friends. The Second Amendment allows every American to carry a gun for protection. Self defense is an inherit right. At school, at work or at play. It has been proven many times that a nut case hellbent on murder can appear suddenly out of nowhere to kill you. Give me the chance to defend myself and to not rely on others to save me. I can only hope that the affected kids can sue the krapp out of any school or public place that refuses to allow kids to defend themselves when something bad happens.

What you aren't taking into consideration is the myriad of other violent crimes that occur on campuses all the time. Rape, robbery, assault. Most of these go unoticed by the media because they are not sensational like an airplane crash.

As another posted commented. When I went to college lots of people had guns on campus and there was NEVER a single incident involving a student and a gun.

With respect to your question, what makes you think they would be untrained and what makes you think that there aren't millions of them illegally carrying guns on campus today? I know that if I were a student today I would carry, legal or not. I'd rather be in control of my own destiny rather than wait for campus security to show up and count dead bodies.

...Another person that doesn't know the fact. Teens can't get concealed weapons permits, so your statement is irrelevent.

Metal detectors?  Ha, they protect no one and cause more problems than they prevent.

More metal detectors, more security guards, that's a great idea. Bury your head in the sand and let someone else be responsible for YOUR safety.

I believe that American's have the right to bear arms...I also believe that no matter what happens guns will find their way onto campuses with or without any restrictions. Therefore, just because I would like the ideal to happen (for metal detectors to work efficiently and for all security officers to be trustworthy) the fact of the matter is that there is nothing that will be a total cure all. I think that prevention of school violence or any violence for that matter starts with addressing issues at home. As long as there are people suffering, there will be people who lash out as a result of their abuse. What do you think?

Andy, you need to brush up on your gun law. Automatic firearms are illegal (for most people) in this country. Over the counter gun sales are semi-automatic unless you register with the ATBF and pay for a $200 tax stamp.

Based on your argument are you ready to ban all automobiles on campus? Remember the guy that ran his car (jeep) onto the sidewalks on campus as some sort of anti-war protest against the US? He could have killed dozens of people but luckily he didn't.

We should probably ban Chemistry labs and any instruction in Chemistry as well as someone might actually produce a deadly gas and release it on campus.

Stop being paranoid of LAW ABIDING citizens. We're talking about people that have submitted to a background check to get the concealed carry permit and another background check to purchase the gun. In the case of Virginia Tech the authorities ignored the gunman's history of mental illness. Don't blame the gun for that, blame the people who are supposed to be out there protecting you and (clearly) are not.

If someone wants to commit suicide they don't need a gun to do it. I find it interesting that people always want to ban guns because of something that "might" happen.

Should we also take away their driver's licenses so they don't get drunk and kill innocent people? Or maybe they won't be drunk but they may drive irrationally (as we all know young people do on occasion) and cause a fatal accident? No ropes or razor blades either...

amp, First of all, we are not asking for thousands of students to be carrying on campus. We are asking that those of us who are already certified to be able to carry in the mall, in the movie theater, at the grocery stores, on the sidewalks, etc... be able to cross that boundary onto campus with our guns.

Japan, a nation that has outlawed guns has a higher suicide rate than the US. If someone wants to commit suicide, they will do so.

Finally, I'm going to assume that you have a career, a steady job and have been to college yourself (or that you can at least observe your sons). Which is more stressful, holding down a 9-5 and everything that goes with that and having to deal with a morgage (sp?) and bills or going to college? Now, before you say something like 'well college kids can't deal with stress the same' (not saying you would, but I've heard it) please don't generalize like that. It is unfair to me and people like me as a whole. 

Right...blame the guns...how about banning the booze? Drunk Frat Party + anything can lead to trouble.

PS - I was in a Frat in college and we had plenty of guns in our house and never had a problem.

Not only that, but just think what will happen when someone finds their girlfriend/boyfriend in bed with another person. Anyone want to find out what will happen the hard way, especially when a weapon is made available?

Seriously Richard, do you listen to yourself? Do you think people comit murder just because a gun is handy? Do you think they don't comit murder with knives and baseball bats which are currently NOT prohibited on campus?

I think most of it happens because of a flood of emotions. People around the 18-25 age group are rather reactive whenever it comes to something that they do not agree with. Sure knives and bats are handy, but someone would try more willingly to stop that person from attacking someone else. Everyone seems to be afraid of a gun though. Like I said before, I know what it's like to be shot at. Do you?

Richard, I certainly respect wher you've been and no, I never want to know what it's like to be shot and I'm sorry you had to go through that. BUT what would be the best way to stop someone from shooting you? Personally I'd rather have a gun and take my chances that way than to have a baseball bat. Taking everyone's guns is an impossible proposition. People who want to find them will....

Now, as for the frat parties and other house parties....where do they take place? Off campus (now I know there are exceptions, but in all the college campuses I've been to, only one has their frat houses on campus, and yes, it's in the hundreds of campuses I've been to). Anyways, they're off campus, where it's already legal to carry. On top of that obtaining a liscense and carrying costs ALOT of money, often times ranging in the thousands of dollars range, do you really think someone responsible enough to go through the training, the background checks, and all those rounds of firing, would want to do something dumb like illegally carrying and drinking which risks a hefty fine (in some states a felony) and lose their liscense forever?

Once again, 'frat boys' can have all the guns that they want. They are already allowed to own them. This dicussion is about carrying them legally on campus. While I don't drink, and I'm not in a frat, I have a gun at my house. Changing the law on what is legel on campus won't change that.

Er...liberals DO NOT want more proliferation of guns.  Otherwise, the NRA couldn't use Obama as a lightning rod to scare people into buying up guns.  Please get an idea as to who is pushing the guns on campus idea before using labels.

Thank you.

People are buying guns because Obama is giving them cause to. Obama has already admitted that he would reinstate the assault weapons ban given the option. This is cause for alarm enough without the NRA being involved.

First of all Cynthia, that cops have absolutely no responsibility to protect you and your life. This has been held up by the supreme court. That is why we don't rely on the police for our saftey. I encourage you to look at this recent article/video from the ABC affiliate in Cincy:

That is a very well done investigative report into police response times, specifically on school campuses.

Now, about the assault weapons (AW). What you need to understand is that the AW ban outlawed certain asthetic things for guns along with certain guns, some people are looking for those things. They have nothing to do with the power of the gun or wether it is auto or semi-auto. Also, there are many hunting rifles that are more powerful than AW's. And, yes some of the guns that you may classify as AW's can be used for hunting. An AK-47, I've seen it used for deer hunting, the advantage is that it can have a longer range than say a shotgun and can be semi-automatic, which is advantageous for shooting at a running deer. (note: I realize that in different areas of the country there are different ways to hunt deer, here in Wisconsin there are many areas where you need them for the longer shots and running deer) Finally, our country is built on the idea that the people rule and that under certain circumstances they may be called upon to defend our country from our own government. I pray to God that that doesn't happen. However, the SCOTUS just upheld the people's ability to own such guns for such situations (as originally given to us by the 2nd ammendment, the most strongly worded ammendment, btw).

Now, you say that criminals will get the guns to kill people (and I will assume that you understand that they will get them no matter what). That is EXACTLY why we fight to keep our ability to defend ourselves from such people.

Finally (sorry to make this longer), a little history lesson. In WWII the Japanese considered invading the US. The reason they didn't? Not because of our Armed forces, no they had confidence that they could handle them. Rather, it was because of the average people with guns 'in the hills' that they were scared of.

Cynthia, people actually do use 'assault rifles' for hunting. The most common 'assault rifle' is an AR15, and they are very popular amount varmint hunters. Most use a bullet that is less than 1/4 of an inch in diamiter (.223/5.56mm). They are labeled 'assault rifles' by liberals to scare uneducated people. Most crimes are carried out with handguns, not rifles.

Please, for everyone's sake, know what you are talking about before you talk about it.

In response to

estcst: why on earth would you need an assault rifle? I don't know a lot about guns,except the ones owned by hunter friends. They don't use assault rifles for killing rabbits, quail or deer. In the case of samll game you would have nothing left to eat, so what's the point? Seem like a hunting rifle would stop a criminal, but be a little harder to use and a frat party if you found you girlfriend with someone else after you had had a few, saving you and whole lot of other people big trouble. Killers will find a way to kill. Criminals can and do get guns good only for killing people.  Men jump out of campus bushes without guns and rape and kill with no warning. The people who go on killing sprees on campuses are sickos with usually illegal guns. So do you want to set up the potential for a free-fire zone on campus where everyone with a carry permit wants to be a hero and kill the bad guy? Leave it to the cops. That's what we pay them for. 

Cynthia,

You acknowledge that you don't know much about guns yet you're Johnny-on-the-spot with a assessment on "Assault Rifles". What is it that "makes" a rifle an assault rifle? Well in the State of Kalifornia they included a provision for any rifle that holds more than 10 rounds of ammunition. I happen to have an 1873 Winchester rifle iwth a 30" barrel that will hold at least 15 rounds of .45 caliber ammo. Is THAT an assault rifle? By Kalifornia standards it is.

This highlights one of the issues we have with gun laws in this country. We have people trying to sell the uninformed public of the danger of "assault rifles" and how they don't really want to ban guns but rather they want "common sense" gun laws. How is the Karlifornia law common sense for owners of Winchester rifles, which by the way were once considered great hunting rifles?

Here is another thought for you to consider. The Second Ammendment is NOT about hunting. It is about the people being able to protect themselves from a government gone haywire. Oh, but that will never happen in the good 'ol USA will it? Oh wait, weren't all the liberals all upset that the government wanted to wire tap phones so they could listen in on terrorist conversations? Funny how people will talk about how their right to privacy is sacred but the right to own the tools to ensure those rights aren't taken away is NOT sacred.

The bottom line is that there are 2 sides to this issue, the right to own guns and a total gun ban. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground. I know what side I am on and why I am on it. I chose my position, NOT because I am some psychopath but because I am an informed and educated person who understands why we need the right to protect ourselves from local thugs as well as governmental thugs. Any person with a modicum of intelligence understands that the FACTS support the right to keep and bear arms.

Cho wasn't a professional either. You're mixing apples and oranges here. In fact, it can be argued that campuses are targets since they're known to be disarmed. Do you think Cho would have done this if he would have known there is the chance that he would have been put down with hardly having fired a shot? These kids are sitting ducks and the gunmen know that. It's part of the reason that they're targets.

Go on all you want about warzones. It wouldn't be much of a warzone if one side was unarmed and that's exactly what we have here.

The standards for concealed carry are much higher than military service. In the military they actually take convicted criminals or people chose military service over incarceration.

To get a concealed carry permit you have to submit to a background check. it sounds to me like you are fine with unarmed citizens as long as the body count isn't too high? What's your number? 1, 10, 20 dead students?

Paul, we are not pushing for colleges to hand out guns, nor are we pushing for the legal age for carrying to be pushed down from 21-18. We are simply asking that those who have passed everything to get the permit be allowed to carry on campus. On top of that, just wondering, how do you feel about the non-traditional students (older students, former military peoples) and professors being allowed to carry onto campus?

I can't follow the logic of your argument.  When so many people already carry guns why is our crime rate holding steady or increasing?  With all these "qualified" private citizens packin heat wherever they go, why aren't the bad guys being apprehended?  Most people would be nervous to be around you if they knew you had a gun on you at all times.  I hope we don't live anywhere near each other.  I don't want your "silent sentry" service  and I sincerely hope you don't kill an innocent person who you mistakenly believe has committed a crime.  You have an awfully high opinion of yourself and your ability to judge right from wrong.  Must be all that church.

No one shoots because they believe the target has committed a crime, even murder.  They shoot because they reasonably believe their life or the life of another is in immediate danger.  That's not too hard to firgure out most of the time.

Many people carry guns, but it is a small percentage relative to the general population.  Also, most CCWers know that the best way to survive a dangerous encountr is to avoid it.  Carrying a gun is part of a comprehensive personal security plan...  not a cure-all itself.  Awareness, avoidance and de-escalation are all used first if possible BEFORE the gun.

The fact remains: Criminals are armed and are willing to use deadly force.  If you should be so unlucky as to encounter one unarmed your life will depend on how charitable the criminal is feeling that day.

Carry a gun for teh same reason you might learn first aid and CPR.  When seconds count 911 is only minutes away.

To AMP 472251,

My logic is simple , please pay attention...

One, I dont care to aprehend anyone, the rise in crime is due to there is no punishment for the crime.  People commit crimes cuz they take a chance and if they get caught, the current laws provide compassion instead of confinement.  Do you think that if laws were more severe for those who commit them with guns, say like go to jail for a long long time with no chance of parole they would continue to comitt the same crime over and over again?

Second, I dont offer my silent sentry service to anyone, just myself, I am not for hire or loan.  If a gunman threatened me with a weapon I would not shiver and plead for mercy.  I would react the way I train, to stop the gunman from killing me. 

Third, Think about who might be carrying the next time your in a public place.  The ones who have a permit to carry wont be the ones holding someone up or trying to commit an armed robbery.  We are just silent of our use and be aware of our surroundings

Forth, I dont have a high opinion of myself, just have a strong will to survive and not become a statistic.  The only time my weapon would come out of its holster was if my life was in danger.  I dont see society , the PD or any other form of Govt making any guarantee that they will be there when they are needed to protect me and stop an act from being comitted. 

And final, my personal opinion, I have a better chance of survival to be judged by 12 of my peers than be carried by six of my friends.

You really live in a fantasy world that "no guns allowed" is a safer way to live.  We need to get the guns out of the hands of the criminals not law abiding sitizens

And by the way ya never know whos carrying, just look around!

HAve a nice day!

I am paying attention, I just don't agree with your argument and don't think you have proven your case. Perhaps you are extremely self disciplined and would only use your weapon in a life or death situation but many others wouldn't be so principled.  Having lived in Miami, where everyone seemed to be armed at all times, people shot each other over parking spaces, traffic disputes and perceived disrespect.  Then there is the very real prospect of accidental shootings, stray bullets and children having access to their parent's weapons.  In 2004, 2852 children between the ages of birth and 19, were killed by firearms.  That includes accidents, suicides, homicide and undetermined causes.  That is almost 8 kids per day.  Between 1990 and 2005, 5,000 children died in firearm accidents.  This country has millions of weapons already in circulation and I do not believe more concealed weapons will ever make it any safer.

Amp, I am happy that at least someone on the other side is doing some homework, rather than relying all on emotion. However, to your point of crime rates going up, you have to look at a couple of things. First, which states/counties allow CHL's and which don't. And in those states/counties that do what kind of crime is on the rise. The answer is simple, it is in the counties and states that do allow CHL's that violent crime is going down, however larceny and burglary (non-violent crimes, that if all go well - according to the criminal- there is no confrontation) are up. It is in the states and counties that don't allow CHL's that violent crime is up. Personall, I can handle someone taking my car, stealing a TV, etc... That is what insurance is for. But if someone wants to harm me I want the means to protect myself.

Next, you brought up the children dieing(sp?) from gun shots. You say that those numbers include accidents, suicides and homicides. Take apart those statistics (i.e. this number died from accidents, this number from suicide, etc...) and you will find that the one that can be best prevented (accidents) is the lowest, by far (I'm not sure what 'undetermined causes' is....maybe a question of accident or suicide?) Not to mention, the number that died from a bullet from a gun of a CHL holder, you can count on one hand (that is from a Brady campaign study). The suicide number? Japan has banned guns altogether, they have a higher suicide rate than the US, that just goes to show that if someone wants to commit suicide, no matter how old, will do so. The kids that were homicide victims? How many of them were shot by rival gang members and guns that were illegally obtained/carried? I guess my point here is that guns can be dangerous, yes. However, in the proper hands they can be quite safe, and actually usefull.